Tommy Truong: [00:00:00] I, before this podcast, I was just really geeking out on you.
Sara Payan: Oh, thanks.
Tommy Truong: I think, I feel like I know your story, but just for the people that are listening that don't, that have never heard your story, um, why did you get into cannabis?
Sara Payan: You know, if you told me 15 years ago I was going to do this, I would tell you you're nuts. Like, I've always started out with that. Um, I've always liked cannabis. I was a precocious kid. So I definitely dabbled in it when I was younger. And kids, kids at home don't do this. Um, but when I was, I had stage 3 colon cancer.
And my mom was a clinical researcher. She's since retired, but she's a hematology oncology nurse and a clinical researcher. And I knew because of her work that THC would help me with nausea and getting me eating again. And at that point in time, we weren't even talking about CBD. It was just THC and the edibles were [00:01:00] kind of iffy, you know, you might get like nothing in a brownie and then this really strong corner, you know?
So it was like, it was a whole different time. So I used that throughout my, I had a resection in my colon, and then I did 12 rounds of chemo, and I almost died twice during it, so apparently I'm very allergic to oxaloplatin, so platinum salts, no bueno. Um, but There were pharmaceuticals that they wanted to give me to help with symptom management that would have been harmful for someone with my type of cancer.
So those are the anti nausea drugs and the opiates. They had bad side effects for me. I was able to forego them and use cannabis instead. So I used it throughout my treatment and I used to, on Wednesdays they would start my infusion, on Fridays my nurse would come and unhook me. And when my, my, Bi weekly, would you call it bi weekly every other week?
Ritual was where I would, she'd unhook me and then I'd finally get to take a shower because you can't have, like, you can't be hooked up to your chemo pump and be [00:02:00] in the shower. So I'd take a shower, I'd smoke a bowl of Blue Dream, and I'd go to my cafe in my neighborhood and I'd have my huevos rancheros, and that was like my thing that I did.
And You know, quite honestly, when I got my diagnosis and found out that I had to do chemo, one of the bright spots was that I finally felt, felt like I could actually get my cannabis card and not feel weird about it. Because it was during the medicinal days. And so, going in, it was like, wow, totally different than getting it from your guy.
You know, it was just like, or your person, because I, you know. But it's, that's how I started getting into Like, seeing what was going on in dispensaries and medicinal use. And then after, it was about a year after chemo, and I was going back to school for org psych, and I had been working as operations for a non profit.
I worked in civil rights and economic justice. And, um, [00:03:00] I had gone to, well actually, at the end of chemo, I had been going to this dispensary. I had become friends with the executive director. And I was coming in one day and they were like, Do you need a job? And I thought, you know, that would be really nice because my work had always been taking care of HR, finance, you know, the physical office, like, facilities.
I took care of all the operations as ops management. And I really wanted to have a fun job that would be different than all the serious jobs I'd always had. So I thought it'd be like being in a bookstore or a coffee shop. And then, of course, I get into this and I'm like, wow. This is so different. I mean, I've always loved geeking out on herbal medicine and in my work, my professional work, I've always put together programs and systems for people to succeed, whether it was around leadership or coaching for management or teaching people's skills.
And so I started to realize we needed to have some [00:04:00] SOPs for training for our staff because we were having people who were coming in on the worst days of their lives. How do we hold space for them? How do we help them navigate the menu? How do we help them give them the language so they can go back and tell their doctors what they're working with?
Because for me when I went to my first dispensary, they were lovely people. But you know, I looked a lot different than I do today. It was very obvious. I was sick. They were afraid to give any advice and of course, you know people behind the bar are not health care practitioners. So I was like, how do you create that balance?
And so I started creating training programs. And then I, and I became the director of education, and then I became the public education officer for the company, and ended up doing all of the outward facing education for the public, which In turn, I started to have great relationships with healthcare institutions like Kaiser and UCSF, where I was going and talking to their patients, but also doing trainings with, like, UCSF's palliative care [00:05:00] pharmacology students, and some of their doctors and nurses and social workers, and I also worked with, uh, UCSF palliative care nurses that were working with, the pediatrics.
And then I created some of the first curriculum for City College, San Francisco on cannabis. So a lot of my work came around that. And then with my civil rights background, I started to get involved in policy. And that's when I became the co chair of the legalization task force in San Francisco. Then I was on oversight committee and now I'm the vice chair of the California state advisory committee.
So that's. Kind of how that all happened, and then eventually people were like, why don't you do a podcast? And my background is in theater and radio from back in the day, so I was able to kind of pull together all of my loves and do the work.
Tommy Truong: You're living the dream. That's amazing.
Sara Payan: I love it. How did you get into it?
Tommy Truong: Gosh. So I, I, just like you, [00:06:00] I started smoking cannabis in high school. My relationship with cannabis is completely different than it was, than it is today. Uh, smoked it in high school. I stopped for a while, actually. I remember, I actually remember this. I remember, Getting so permafried and forgetting where the controller, where, where's the control.
I don't know where the TV control, I'm not high by the way, I'm completely normal, right? Forgetting where the controller is, opening up the fridge and realizing, Oh my God, the controller's in the fridge.
Sara Payan: I don't know.
Tommy Truong: weed every day. I need to take a break. So I did, went to college and, um, Got back to smoking weed, but the relationship has changed since then.
It's, it's so much more productive now than it is recreational. And, uh, my business partners, they're, uh, their mom who, who passed away from cancer was, uh, went through chemo and that was the relationship that started with, Oh, this is a medicine too, and not just [00:07:00] recreational. Then, um, so fast forward, we have a. A business that, uh, sells, well, we sell workforce management software to restaurants. So we help businesses simplify their people management. And a lot of our restaurants went into the cannabis industry, and I saw, oh my god, okay, we have to get into the cannabis industry too. This is the industry, I love this.
And that's, that was the foray into the cannabis industry.
Sara Payan: That's cool. You know, I, I took a break too because I actually ended up when I was in high school, I had, I actually had a really bad anxiety attack. And I also was not high, and I think, and at that time I was just like, you know what, maybe this doesn't work well for my body, so I'm going to stop for a while.
And I think that there is, there is something about really understanding the therapeutic values of cannabis that changes your relationship with it and your experience. Because I, I still love THC, and I love a good hash, but during the day, I really [00:08:00] enjoy using CPG. I think I like to, I like to look at minor cannabinoids and what they do with their body and exploring the modes of use.
I think it's, you know, I, I think with anything you can have, you have to be cognizant of your relationship,
Tommy Truong: That's the big thing. I've realized, does cannabis serve me or do I serve cannabis? Do I serve the plant or the plant serves me? And you're totally right. You have to be cognizant of your relationship with the plant. Is it serving you? Because everything can be abused.
Sara Payan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with the way our world is and we're constantly rushing from moment to moment and consumed by everything outside of our bodies, that a lot of times we forget to ground and be in touch with what's going on inside. And that's when You know, when I was still working with Apothecarium as public education officer, and I'd have people coming and dumping a bag of stuff in front of me and being like, I don't know.
All I know is it didn't work. It wasn't [00:09:00] what I wanted. And it was like, well Let's create this container for safe experimentation so that you can be mindful about your use, ground, take a moment, like do a mental scan and a physical scan and see where you're at today because we're walking chemistry experiments.
And as you go through this exercise and you figure out what works well for you and you record your impressions with your experimentation, my greatest hope is that They take some form of that into their everyday life for everything they put in their bodies. I try to. I mean, and I'm certainly not perfect because I'm still rushing through life like everybody else, but I feel like cannabis is that opportunity, that call to pause and, and just ground and, and see what's going on.
Tommy Truong: So, you know, with your background, you've, you've been on really much both sides from a policy perspective, as well as it helping people understand the plant better. How do [00:10:00] you, how do you see rescheduling impact the, for the industry, just in not, not from a financial perspective, but just industry in general?
Sara Payan: I mean, I think that any sort of change will help further the conversation for normalization. That being said, I'm firmly in camp de schedule. Because, you know, we talk about rescheduling, um, but there's a lot of pharmaceuticals that, you know, are schedule 3 that, I mean, you don't, you don't see Xanax dispensaries in, in cities.
So how does that make sense? How does that really work? I mean, we have an existing framework in our government for For substances that create euphoric effects that are geared more towards adult use. Why don't we look more around that and then also look at the framework for medicinal as well? Because [00:11:00] when we look at the greater like what's going on with human beings, you know, it's a very small portion of the public that's just looking to get high.
So when we see all these, these dispensaries and they're worried about sales and it's like the race to the bottom with prices to get people in. The one thing I think that we've learned from this is that formula retail doesn't work. And that cannabis is really personal. And if you want to have return consumers, you want to have relationships with these people.
You have to have differentiators with substantial amounts of outreach and knowledge. And really looking at it through a wellness lens. And that's, that's where I see it. I, I don't think we're going to see any movement with rescheduling. I mean, I could be wrong, but with the way things are going, I think we have a lot of other things that have to be taken care of.
Um, but that being said, with this administration, anything is on the table. I mean, you know, who knows?
Tommy Truong: [00:12:00] Does rescheduling mean that dispensaries need to be medical dispensaries and not recreational? Do you know?
Sara Payan: We have no idea. And there's a lot of speculation around that. I know that, I had the two co chairs of the Congressional Cannabis Caucus on the show a couple of times. And they both seem to think that it won't cause any problems. Rescheduling. They're both firmly about de scheduling, but they're saying rescheduling would also be helpful.
Um, I think it really depends on, you know, who's at the table in these conversations. Um, because just like we were talking about now, like, you've got RFK who's pro cannabis, you've got an anti cannabis person in DEA, and then, you know, we're looking at some really interesting things with the IRS. So It's anyone's guess.
It's um, it's a stressful yet fascinating time.
Tommy Truong: It's, it's wild.
Sara Payan: [00:13:00] Yeah.
Tommy Truong: It's a wild time to be alive.
Sara Payan: Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, there's, I wouldn't want everything to go back to medicinal and because I want people to have the choice. And I think that the patients have really gotten the short end of the stick on this too, because We're not seeing as much education and there are products that would be geared towards them that are not on the shelves because inventory is real estate and real estate is expensive.
But if we had more room to have conversations about why these products are important, then from a sales perspective, I think they wouldn't, they would actually be moving on the shelves rather than sitting there.
Tommy Truong: Have you seen a drop in service when the state went from medical to rec?
Sara Payan: Yeah, I mean, well, okay, yes and no. It's complicated, because, I know I haven't been in retail now for a few years, [00:14:00] and I know there was a drop in sales, but I don't know, I think it's a bunch of things. There were more dispensaries or more opportunities because I think when I started there was a handful of dispensaries in the Bay Area here.
And so we would have lines out the door and 420 was crazy. And then when we got into the era of legalization, it was nothing like that. Like 420, we thought that the first 420 would be just a crazy, you know, pot fest. And it was not, you know, sales were nowhere near what they were before. Um, Also, the fact that it's extraordinarily overtaxed.
And when we first got into legalization in California, there were a lot of people that were in the traditional market that were starting to close up shop because they figured there would be, you know, no competition. Now, we see that we have a very large traditional market in California because one, The high prices in, in dispensaries, and [00:15:00] two, just how homogenous everything's become that's available in dispensaries.
So, you know, it's, it's complicated. And, and I'll tell you what, when legalization happened, there was We were excited and then when people started to come in and purchase and their favorite products were no longer available from their favorite companies and they were having to spend more and the fact that a lot of these medicinal users were critically and chronically ill low income patients, there were tears on both sides of of the bar.
It was really really hard. Now the prices have gone down. I think that there are more people purchasing than ever before, but there's also more choices of where to go than ever before, too. And, you know, for those who want to have to pay less or to have more choices with their flowers, maybe have some more exotic flowers to choose from, they are turning back to the traditional market, which, you know, when we look at California, one of the things that we should have really Thought about was how [00:16:00] high the taxes were and the high barrier to entry into the market because they'd make so much state would make so much more money if the taxes were lower because there'd be more purchases.
We wouldn't be having as rich of a traditional market and they wouldn't be having to invest all this money in enforcement. That's highly problematic.
Tommy Truong: It's a, it's a problem that feeds itself. It seems like they're not collecting enough taxes. So you've got to increase the taxes and the sales decrease, and everybody goes to the traditional market. And it's just, it's a, it's a problem that's spiraling out of control.
Sara Payan: It is. And the fact of the matter is, is it's an econ 101 lesson. So why don't we know this?
Tommy Truong: It's normal. People do know this
Sara Payan: Yeah. Right.
Tommy Truong: people in Sacramento.
Sara Payan: Well, and you'd hope that they, they would. And I wonder what the disconnect is because, you know, I, I work with a lot of these people. They're, they're very smart, lovely [00:17:00] people, but what is, is it stigma? Is stigma the disconnect? Is it who they have access to, to have conversations around this?
That's a disconnect. Were promises made so that things could pass that creates the disconnect like there's just so much packed into that and that's What I wonder like I don't want to I don't want to you know Bag on the DCC but the people who are getting voted in That depend on our votes for their jobs have not done the best job with you know creating these these laws
Tommy Truong: I, I don't think politicians have a very good grasp of supply and demand and how. Inflation occurs.
Sara Payan: Oh, well, yeah, and when I was on oversight committee in San Francisco, the controller's office presented us with a report on the price per gram. And this was, this was back in, it was either end of [00:18:00] 2019, beginning of 2020. And they said that the price of per gram of cannabis was going up due to competition.
Well, you and I both know that nothing has ever gone up. Due to competition and actually I got on the mic to say that and I said, you know, the reason that the price has gone up is because of the barrier to entry, the high barrier to entry. All of the taxation, the fact that it's expensive to do business in California anyway, and the fact that real estate, especially in major metropolitan areas, is extraordinarily expensive, and it's really hard for people opening dispensaries or, you know, Production facilities to find those spaces because there's a lot of greenlining that's been going on and we have Counties that don't even allow it still even though we have legalization.
So we have we have a lot to unpack around and that is why the price was so high at the time and It's not a revelation. I am NOT a [00:19:00] genius It's just a
Tommy Truong: I'm not surprised. I am, I am not surprised that a politician said that. Not surprised. You're, so you're still involved today.
Sara Payan: Yeah
Tommy Truong: So what's, what's the plans for 2025? What's, what's down the pipe?
Sara Payan: You know, we're talking a lot about lab testing, um, you know, there's also conversations around social equity. For me personally, I'm really interested in what's going on with medicinal use, um, also with a veterinary use of cannabis with pets for those of us who are, you know, for parents. Um,
Tommy Truong: what are some of the policies that you guys are talking about regarding cannabis and, and the vet industry?
Sara Payan: Well, they're, they're looking at different ways to vet products and test them and where they should be allowed and allowing veterinarians to have the conversations about it, which they are. Um, but there still isn't great availability. And right now, [00:20:00] uh, veterinary CBD isn't allowed in dispensaries and so they want to have greater availability as well.
So, because I know that Tim has a product that's high in THC, not high in THC, but high enough in THC that it would be considered a cannabis product, and I couldn't find it in dispensaries, and I think that that's a shame. There should be greater availability. Also with having the state create more policy supporting the use.
of cannabis and hemp products for pets. More veterinarians will feel comfortable having those conversations, carrying those products at their practices, and, and working with patients with that. So those are, those are some of the big things. Um, we're also looking at, I don't know if you've heard this, but there is a group, Who is looking to, uh, repeal Prop 64 because they feel like we've made a big mistake.
And that's an interesting thing to go into. I'm going to be having more conversations about that in the future. I don't know as much about it as I'd like to, [00:21:00] but it is members of the industry who are very supportive of the industry itself, but are saying, hey, what we're doing isn't working. My, my concern with that is it takes millions to make that happen.
And I just don't know how it's going to be embraced. Although I do support the fact that we need change now.
Tommy Truong: Yeah. Wow.
Sara Payan: Yeah. Right. We live in exciting times.
Tommy Truong: Yeah. I, I, I had no idea that that was on the table for discussion.
Sara Payan: Yeah. It sure is. It sure is. And um, you know, I think the conversations have been brewing for a little bit, but they've just finally started having large scale meetings about it. I think, I want to say that it was this fall that the first call started about that. So, you know, you'll, you'll be hearing more about that in coming months as well.
And I, I applaud the activists that are, and the industry members that are involved in this because I don't know [00:22:00] that It's going to be successful, but it creates essential conversation. So I think, I think it's good that this is coming out and that people are, are pushing for this. I don't know what will happen with it, but maybe we can at least change what we have, even if we can't repeal 64.
Tommy Truong: What is happening with consumption lounges?
Sara Payan: Well, have you been to some of the ones in LA?
Tommy Truong: No.
Sara Payan: They're great.
Tommy Truong: Are
Sara Payan: Yeah. They're awesome.
Tommy Truong: can go in and smoke, and that's fine.
Sara Payan: Yeah. You can go in and smoke. Um, I haven't been in them since the bill passed where you're allowed to serve food and beverages, and I think that's gonna be really cool, um, because they can do that now. When I was in LA this summer, I went to the artistry, and I sat out on the balcony, and they brought me a menu, and I could choose from all sorts of things to consume, and I could rent a bong, or a puff co, and it was just very, like, grown up, and the space was beautiful.[00:23:00]
Um, If I could get, uh, a packaged beverage, like, you know, a can of something, and if I wanted to have uninfused food, I had to order from the pizza place next door, and then they would bring it up to me. But it was a good pizza. It was. But I couldn't wait for the day that we could have something like that in house, and it looks like that's what we're, we're working with now.
So, to be able to have something that's more like an Amsterdam style cafe, or I think it's not only good as far as safe access for people who can't consume in their homes and things like that, but also, you know, California, we have a lot of people who come visit us. And, you know, I remember when I worked in a dispensary and people would buy stuff and they'd be like, Okay, well now where can I use this?
Tommy Truong: That's so true. That is so true.
Sara Payan: Yeah, so to have like a safe and entertaining space where there can be entertainment as well, like back in the 215 days, some dispensaries would [00:24:00] have like jazz nights or comedy nights or things like that. That went away with legalization. Now all of that is coming back too. So we're, we're getting back to some of our roots where it could be more of a community focused place to
Tommy Truong: I've always wondered about the monetization of consumption lounges.
Sara Payan: Yeah, they're hard.
Tommy Truong: It's so like how you go into a bar, you can have six, seven beers.
Sara Payan: Yeah.
Tommy Truong: And I guess consumption lounges, you would have to serve low THC beverages. That would be the play
Sara Payan: I would, I would think so, unless you had like some sort of, um, education.
Tommy Truong: Maybe an activity like mini golf, or, you know, you pay, maybe it's like tied with a comedy club and you go in there and you pay for tickets.
Sara Payan: I would love that. I would also love to see a karaoke night. That would be
Tommy Truong: Oh yeah. That, yeah, that would work too.
Sara Payan: That would be a lot of fun. But I think, you know, if we look to what Minnesota's been doing with, you can get hemp beverages [00:25:00] and restaurants and bars, they're doing great. There have been no complications. It's a great model to look at when we're looking at, we're looking at consumption lounges where it's just cannabis.
Tommy Truong: that ever happen in California?
Sara Payan: I hope so. I hope so. I hope that we can learn from other, The thing I hope the most is that we can learn from the successes of other states and we can learn from the mistakes. You know, like California, we've done some things right. We've learned from some of our mistakes and in some ways we've been a poster child on how not to do it.
Which is sad, because we were the first, like, to have medicinal, not adult use, but medicinal. We should be ahead of the curve.
Tommy Truong: I've always wondered why not low marijuana beverages, not hemp. Like, why, why can't we do that? Like, why, why can't we have that?
Sara Payan: stigma. But I think we can change that with the conversation. I mean, my, my husband Jeff and I, over the pandemic, we have in our front yard is a big [00:26:00] garden. It's like we have a big fenced in garden and we would have friends over, you know, when we weren't. Meeting indoors because we have these big Adirondack chairs and one of the things that we were doing, we were serving cannabis drinks when people would come visit and a lot of times our friends either hadn't partaken in cannabis for many years or they were very new to it and having like 2.
5 milligram drinks that are fast acting, sitting in a beautiful garden, I can't tell you how many people after that were like, where can I get that? This was great. You know, or calling me the next day saying it was fun. It was giggly. And I didn't feel like crap the next day. How awesome is that? Yeah.
Tommy Truong: With Nano THC 2, now you can have a good time and have your cake and eat it too.
Sara Payan: Well, that's it. You don't have to have a drink and like wait forever for the effects. Now the effects are come on quickly. If you're somebody who's like a social drinker, you can have a bunch of low dose as long as you know your dosage. [00:27:00] I mean, it's, it's just so much nicer than meeting your friends at the bar and having to like leave for a little bit to go up to the curb to smoke a joint.
I mean, and I do love smoking joints, don't get me wrong, but it's just more social when you can partake. with the rest of your friends.
Tommy Truong: You've, so you're, you, you hold a very unique spot in the industry because of your involvement in different facets. And you talk to so many people in the industry. Where do you think 2025 is heading? Cause it's, it's,
Sara Payan: Tell me that's a hard question.
Tommy Truong: it's a, you know, I was at MJ biz talking to everybody. It's, it's difficult right now.
Sara Payan: It's very difficult right now. I think, I think a lot of companies have been very smart to add hemp to their menu serving. Um, That area, especially because in areas where cannabis isn't available, established cannabis [00:28:00] companies in the hemp field create safe access, and I'm not saying that people that are strictly into hemp don't have safe practices, because some of them do, but some of them don't, and that's problematic.
So. Having people come from an industry that standardization and testing and just keeping everything to a certain level I think is really, really important because I work still with patients and their physicians and in states where cannabis isn't available, being able to make a solid recommendation for a hemp based product has become so much easier.
And that's really nice. I really hope that hemp and cannabis start talking to one another more because together We can create a lot more change. Like our lobbying efforts would be so much more effective.
Tommy Truong: agree with you. And just, I look at what hemp has done and. It's exactly what we wanted,
Sara Payan: Yeah, exactly.
Tommy Truong: they're paving the way who knew that they would pave the way, but [00:29:00] it's amazing.
Sara Payan: It is amazing and what I'd like to see is some of the stuff with cannabis to loosen up And I would like to see just a little bit more controls on the hemp side around testing and standardization. Nothing crazy, but meet somewhere in between. And I would love to see dispensaries carrying both cannabis and hemp products, because I think that they're both very important and there's room for everybody.
It's just coming with your A game, creating great products. having good education because education is part of the conversation. You know, we have more satisfying outcomes. We have more adult conversations about it. There'll be more people who consider either hemp or cannabis products as maybe part of their wellness routine.
If there's more education and conversation, it's, it's not only about a public health thing, but if you want to look at it from a retail standpoint, it's really smart marketing as well. As long as everything you're saying is [00:30:00] true.
Tommy Truong: So, you know, you, you have background in that. If I was a retail, if I was just starting a retail store today and I was boarding my team, what are the pillars of education that I should look into? Hmm.
Sara Payan: you're looking at training your staff, one of the biggest mistakes people make, and I hear this all the time, the turnover of budtenders is really high, or This elitist notion that when you're a people, you're, you're facing the public and you're serving the public, you must not be well educated or smart.
It's like, that's why I think that almost every adult should go back and do a retail job at least for a couple months so that they can be like, Oh, wow. You know, I have all this education, but because I'm behind a bar, people are treating me like I'm dumb. Those are the two biggest fallacies. As somebody who's worked as an educator.
And as a trainer and as a human resources professional one of the best ways to lower [00:31:00] turnover is through professional development. And it's one of the biggest compliments when you train someone so well and they're so engaged that they go off to do other great things because nobody stays in a company forever.
And when you have a well trained staff, and when I was training staff it was on soft skills, it was on, You know, cannabis education, but I also had a lot of conversations about why we were here and the history. Because I think it's really important for people to understand what they're doing for eight plus hours of their life every day.
And training them so that they're navigators, not health care providers, but they're able to help people understand everything, help them figure out what they need, and give them the language to go and talk to their physicians about it. And what I found was With my training programs is at the time that I was there we had one of the highest retention rates in the industry Like they say, you know bud tenders turn over in less than a [00:32:00] year We had people who were there for years and they went on to do other things.
They went in to work in inventory They went in to work in marketing. They may have gone to work for another cannabis company that was doing something that they found interesting that with other skills in their wheelhouse. Some people went back to school to get bachelor's degrees in cannabis science and other things.
You know, it's an amazing way to grow talent, to keep talent and not only that, but when you have those kinds of educated staff. People come back because there will always be people who will be trade that'll be chasing the prices But they know exactly what they want and a wider swath of our public Really want to have that connection like I had somebody who said to me one Sarah I could get my weeds somewhere cheaper, but I come to you because Your staff are knowledgeable.
They educate me and they hold me with compassion and respect
Tommy Truong: it's funny. I was talking to Gary, uh, Gary from Kova and we had the exact same conversation. I would [00:33:00] pay two to three dollars more for a better experience. Same thing. No problem.
Sara Payan: Yeah, and that's one of the biggest disconnects and I think it comes from, and I'm not dogging on MSOs because we need everybody. We need, we need small companies, we need large companies, there is a company, there is a company or a, you know, a structure that serves everybody. But I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of MSOs have made is that retail, formula retail works because it doesn't.
Cannabis is nuanced. People are walking chemistry experiments. We know how majority of human beings respond. I have over 20, 000 hours of experience with human beings and cannabis. And I've seen everything from your average, yeah, 2. 5 to 5 milligrams for your beginner, to people who have tripped out on high ratios of CBD to THC.
Tommy Truong: cannabis reminds me of?
Sara Payan: What?
Tommy Truong: So there's, there are things that people think are universal that are good for you. Until you take a blood [00:34:00] test and a dietician, a naturopath looks at you like, Hey, I, my business partner, avocados are really good for her. Avocados are terrible for me.
Sara Payan: Yes!
Tommy Truong: I just don't know it.
It doesn't impact me as much. But in cannabis, you feel it right away.
Sara Payan: Yeah! Yeah!
Tommy Truong: The body is so different.
Sara Payan: The body is so different. And in addition, I think when you're in retail, you should have outreach. And, you know, if company's tabling is an interesting thing and that does draw some people in. But if you actually have programs that the public can attend that talk about different products and modes of use and why it's important for those to be available, that activates people a lot more. I, I had classes, I did classes for eight years for my old company and we did some of them in person, but then over the pandemic I did them online over zoom and my cannabis [00:35:00] anxiety, depression, and sleep class would get over 200 people from all over the, you know, and I'm not, you know, and you're having these conversations and you're using compliant language.
You're not saying. It's going to cure your depression or your anxiety, but you're like, if you feel a little stressed out, maybe you want to consider doing some experimentation with CBD or CBG. If you want something that might help assist a good night's sleep, let's talk about some products that might help with that.
And are you having problems getting to sleep? Are you having problems staying asleep? What are some of the things that you're worried about? Do you have, is it stress keeping you up? Is it restless legs? And as we have these conversations, you make suggestions of things that they might try that will assist.
Not cure, not treat, but a tool in your toolkit to help you create that balance in your life because we're all striving for homeostasis.
Tommy Truong: That's a really good tip. You had a hundred, 200 people join a webinar to [00:36:00] learn about the plan and how it can help them.
Sara Payan: Yeah, and you know, not all of those people were in our market they would be purchasing.
Tommy Truong: No.
Sara Payan: But I'll tell you, like, when we would run the, the reports after those classes, because we would feature those products on our menu afterwards, and they were all pertinent to the subject, there was, there was definitely, you could see where the sales were affected by that.
Because we would pull the numbers, there would be codes for those. And so, having that kind of outreach can really change your bottom line as well.
Tommy Truong: Are there any courses that you recommend new retailers take to understand? Oh,
Sara Payan: You know, I can't think of any right now, but I haven't been doing a lot of delving into it. I mean, I've worked with a lot of universities that have classes that are more towards like bachelor's degrees or certificate programs. Um, but, you know, I, [00:37:00] I actually, that's some of the work that I do as a consultant is going in and teaching companies about that and how to set up those programs.
Tommy Truong: sweet. So they can just contact you.
Sara Payan: Yeah,
Tommy Truong: awesome.
What are some courses or what are some topics that retailers could think about when segmenting their, their audience?
Sara Payan: well, I mean you could do I did a class on women in cannabis I did a class on women in sex or cannabis and sex and actually I taught that
Tommy Truong: Cannabis and sex
Sara Payan: and I taught it at Good Vibrations as well I did a little partnership with them too because they were carrying a lot of CBD based lubricants and um You know, really like talking about set and setting, and consent, and maybe if you're THC naive starting with something that's really low or maybe an emerging cannabinoid, but going back to women's bodies and cannabis, that is something that goes throughout a woman's life cycle, because when we ovulate, we're [00:38:00] actually more sensitive to THC.
And then when we look at menopause and perimenopause are so many great tools as well because we're dealing with a lot of stuff with our hormones. So to have those conversations and to, you know, it's, it's funny because I would have women that would attend class and they'd be like, Oh, I passed all of that.
How does this help me? I'm like, it's, there's, you still have hormones running through your body. You're not gone, lady. You're still here.
Tommy Truong: are alive.
Sara Payan: still alive. Um, but yeah, I mean, whether we're talking about suppositories, lubricants, edibles, you know, maybe, you know, something to get in the mood, like a quick puff off of a vape or a joint, there are a lot of amazing tools that are in cannabis that can help create homeostasis when we're going through critical times in our lives with our changing bodies.
And I, just for the record, I love Amanda. She's so smart. She's
Tommy Truong: She is a wealth of [00:39:00] knowledge. I learned so much talking to her.
Sara Payan: Yeah, she is. And just the data that she has access to is, is just amazing. She's always a treat to learn from.
Tommy Truong: Yeah, I, uh, I think to myself, man, I gotta have you on board. Not for the audience, but for me. So I can learn.
Sara Payan: We can do that.
Tommy Truong: Sarah, before I let you go, I have some questions for you. And just around, just quick questions. And so this is a segment that our producer Owen, Owen, if you're listening, hello. Uh, asked me to do with all of our guests, uh, is to ask questions about cannabis. So, I'm gonna rapid fire these questions for you.
When was the first time you smoked?
Sara Payan: I was 13.
Tommy Truong: What was your experience at 13?
Sara Payan: I didn't get high and asked for my money back. He took my weed, but he didn't give me my money back.
Tommy Truong: Uh, flower, vape, or edible?
Sara Payan: Flower.
Tommy Truong: Flower? Indica? Sativa?
Sara Payan: Indica.
Tommy Truong: So what are you normally [00:40:00] doing when you smoke?
Sara Payan: Usually it's the end of the day. So, you know, it's usually a joint in the Great British Bake Off.
Tommy Truong: So how often do you smoke?
Sara Payan: Every day.
Tommy Truong: Favorite strain?
Sara Payan: Ooh, there are so many. I think right now, my favorite is Cherry Moon from Moon Maid Farms.
Tommy Truong: Why?
Sara Payan: Cause it's just so chill. It's so fragrant. Um, it's really functional for me, but I mean, that being said, the caveat is I can smoke granddaddy purple in the middle of the day. Um, so things don't really make me sleepy, but it's a great one to kick back with.
It's also really nice cause I do a lot of my writing in the evening. So it just kind of, you know, stops all those thoughts of, Oh, where do I begin? And I just get into flow state, which is. And it's just so fragrant. And I am, I, there are, there are cultivators across the board, whether we're talking about indoor outdoor mix light that are [00:41:00] extraordinarily talented, but there's a special place in my heart for sun grown flower.
Tommy Truong: What was your worst experience with cannabis?
Sara Payan: Well, my worst experience with cannabis was when I, back in the two 15 days I had taken a THCA tincture. And it was in an alcohol base and so kind of like ceviche it decarbed the THCA to THC and I took way more than I would have if it was THC and I ended up tripping and I was at work.
Tommy Truong: At work? What were you doing?
Sara Payan: I was behind the bar helping people. I had actually, it was this bottle, like that big, like 30 milligrams or milliliters of uh, of a THCA tincture. I was starting to get sick and when I used to feel like I was coming down with the flu, if I would ingest a lot of THCA, it would, it would knock it out or make it less worse.
Like it's how I was [00:42:00] getting sick. So I went in the back and I knocked it back thinking that it was totally Non euphoric and I was helping someone behind the bar and all of a sudden the trip from the bar to the register was kind of a blur and I ended up getting through helping that person because at first it started out.
I just was a little giggly a little upbeat and then it was like I What I would But I wasn't. Yep. And then after that, I ended up, my shift was over, but I ended up staying till the store closed in the extra room and just, and just waiting it out till, and it was, and I, I just, I just remember saying to myself, I get it.
I get it. I was dumb. I will never do that again. And it was completely a mistake, but my colleagues joked about the day Sara roofied herself at work.
Tommy Truong: That's too funny. Okay, I can't end with the worst experience. Favorite memory, or one of your [00:43:00] favorite memories. One of your favorite memories smoking.
Sara Payan: one of my favorite memories smoking. I think probably one of my favorite memories smoking was being on one of, one of my friend's cannabis farms and sitting on the back deck and they were on a really high hill with all the valleys because it was up in Humboldt and watching like just that golden sun come down and there was a group of us there just hanging out.
And talking and smoking and there was music and it was just so, you know, we have, we have such a special community. It's not, it's not just an industry. You know, sometimes people talk about industry versus movement. We're community. And to be able to share that with people and just be, that's pretty beautiful.
Tommy Truong: beautiful. Sarah. Thank you. Oh before I let you go. How can our listeners find you?
Sara Payan: Oh, sure. So if you follow me on social media, there are two different ways. My personal accounts [00:44:00] are saramitrapayan. S A R A M I T R A P A Y A N And then to follow my planted podcast, it's plantedwithsara on Twitter, Instagram, and Blue Sky, and on Facebook, it's plantedwithsarapayan.
Tommy Truong: Sara, thank you so much for joining us today.
Sara Payan: Thank you so much for having me, Tommy. It was wonderful talking with you, and you have to come on my podcast.
Tommy Truong: Definitely. Definitely.
Outro: Thanks for listening to the Kaya Cast podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcast app, or visit our website to access the full archive of episodes from the show.
