Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the KayaCast, the podcast for cannabis businesses looking to launch, grow, and scale their operations.
Tommy: What should you expect from your financial institution? What should you or your employees do? When you're trying to obtain a loan while working in this industry, Peter SU from Hanover bank joins us today to talk about all things.
Cannabis banking. Peter has started not just one, not just two, but tres, three cannabis banking programs. And he joins us to talk about what he's learned. Well, working in the cannabis industry. This was such a great conversation. I hope you guys enjoy.
Peter, thank you so much for joining us today.
Peter Su: Hey Tommy, how's it going? How are you? for having me.
Tommy: You have quite the experience in the banking industry, let alone the cannabis industry as well. You started three cannabis programs. Based on what you've seen, what [00:01:00] should someone look for in a cannabis banking solution?
Peter Su: Oh, sure. Um, you know, I, I think I, I would look for experience, uh, as a number one. Um, and I know that's a little hard to determine, but I mean, just bluntly ask, right? Like, hey, are you meaning the bank? Um, have you guys done this before? How many accounts do you have? Um, there's a couple of reasons for that.
One, um, it used to be common, uh, where banks would get in and get out. Um, meaning they try it and then they're like, yeah, this didn't work or whatever, or it's too much work. Um, we can't make enough money. And then they get out and that that's disruptive to the business, right? You're talking about closing accounts, changing all your payments, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, effectual payroll, right? Like if you're hooked up with KayaPush now you gotta change all your, your payment information. So experience to me is a big one because it suggests anyway that the bank has You know, gone down this road a ways and they're ready to move forward to do more. [00:02:00] Uh, the other is, um, you know, you just don't want to put up a frustrating, dumb questions, right?
Like you're going to get questions like from the bank and you're going to be like, what are you talking about? Like, what, like, do you understand the industry? You know, um, that's more just annoyance rather than anything else. But yeah, that, that to me is the big one. Like does your banker, your actual point of contact, do they understand Um, you know, how long has the bank been doing this, you know?
Tommy: Hanover is your third cannabis banking program, number three. And not a lot of people have that opportunity to create a program, see what's wrong with it, make some changes and do it three times over. What have you learned in your first two times, your two times go around and what has, what is different about your current program?
Peter Su: Oh, uh, you know, this time around I kind of wanted something, I did want something different, something pretty specific, uh, and, and it's actually very simple. Uh, I wanted to be able [00:03:00] to treat cannabis businesses like, like normal businesses. Um, So, I mean, to the extent that the regulations allow us, obviously, right?
Like, of course, we worry about third parties, um, but to the extent that we can treat a cannabis business like, like any other customer that's walking through the door, that's what I wanted. Uh, and that is something that I've always felt was missing in, in the other programs I've worked on. And I was also a consultant for a bit, so I've actually worked on, as a consultant, I've consulted with dozens of programs around the country. And a commonality I would always find is that they would be, um, a reluctance. Um,
so for example, uh, and you may have heard this, there's certain banks, for example, you can bank there, but you can't go into the branches. Just as an example, you know, like, like, uh,
even if the branch is like literally across the street, you cannot, you're not, they won't say this, but it's like you're not welcome to come in.
You're a different customer. Um,
maybe they don't make certain services [00:04:00] available to you, right? Uh, like you go on their website and you see, Oh, you're advertising this product, you're advertising this rate. Uh, oh yes we are, but it's not available to you.
Tommy: Got it.
Peter Su: Why is that? Um, there's a variety of reasons for it, but my basic driver was I didn't want that anymore.
I wanted to say, uh, again, to the extent possible, to the extent reasonable, then they'll look, tell me, you're a customer. Whatever the bank does, we're going to make available to you as well.
Tommy: That's brilliant. That's amazing.
I had no idea that. It's great to see that we've gone such a long way
Peter Su: Yeah.
Tommy: in destigmatizing our industry
and banking is such a huge part of it.
Peter Su: Yeah.
Tommy: Is there any restrictions that Hanover Bank has compared to other, other banks that are not [00:05:00] serving the cannabis industry?
Peter Su: Uh, well, uh, I'm not aware of any, uh, again, we have, we have certain things that happen in the background from a compliance monitoring, you know, risk profiling perspective that, um, that might make a cannabis business, you know, better. different than a quote unquote normal business, uh, but again I would put it in the same category as any other high risk bank, any other high risk customer that the bank has. Uh, now as I mentioned there are third parties sometimes involved, right, and they may or may not have their own rules. Uh, so I'll give an example like, um, uh, credit cards. So we, we, we under normal circumstances we issue business debit cards, uh, through one of the associations. So we're a member of the same association as everyone else is, right? But, they're not cannabis friendly, and thus we cannot. So, in that scenario, that's not our decision per se, right? We're [00:06:00] just conforming to the rules that have been given to us. But if it's something that we are able to full cycle decide all the way through, there's no restrictions.
Tommy: I get this asked a lot
Peter Su: heh.
Tommy: as employees and people working in the cannabis industry and their, you know, normal course of business, you apply for a loan, you apply for a mortgage, etc. What is some of the advice that you, you can give to these individuals that, Are making a career in your industry, but may not have access to certain facilities.
Yeah.
Peter Su: recently as, you know, three years ago, four years ago, I used to get calls all the time. Someone would say, oh, my employee couldn't get a mortgage, right? Um, I have a couple of different schools of thought on it, uh, but I'll start with the good news. The good news is those calls have largely stopped. I very rarely get those calls anymore. Um, and when I get them, they seem to [00:07:00] be solvable. Whether I can do it or I know someone that can do it. However, a couple things I should point out, right? Let's say you're talking about a mortgage. So you're filling out a mortgage statement. Um, There's actually a uniform mortgage statement that is commonly used. Um, and there's like a code for it, I forget. 5408 or something like that. Um, and it is in fact just that it's, it's the uniform mortgage, whatever. It's actually, you know, like, like you could like go on to, uh, uh, like, like Fannie Mae's website, like download it, you know? Uh, so, uh, just food for thought really. So Tommy, you're filling out a mortgage statement. There's going to be a statement, like the application, and if you read it, it actually says, uh, hereby attest. You know, blah, blah, blah. All these statements I've made are true, blah, blah, blah. And I conform to all local, county, state, and federal [00:08:00] law, right? So, say, uh, in your case that might not, this might not be true. But let's say I, I, and assuming I'm being honest, I make all my money as a trimmer, And I put that as, again, I'm being honest, I write it on my application. Well, that source of income is, is federally illegal, right? Um, so can you, so if you answer that, that you attest to it, um, have you just committed bank fraud? If you don't answer it honestly, you have in fact created bank, no, committed bank fraud. And lastly, if that is my sole source of income, Can that loan now be packaged and sold to Fannie or Freddie, which like 90 percent of mortgages in America are packaged up and sold into these pools? Um, can that loan now still be pooled and sold to a federal agency, which it technically is right now.
It's owned by the [00:09:00] Treasury. Um, you know, the answer is no one knows. That has never been officially addressed anywhere that I'm aware of. Now don't get me wrong, uh, and this, this is where the good news, this is why I started the good news. Um, obviously it happens, right? Like, like there's something like 400, 000 people employed by the legal cannabis business. I imagine a few of them have mortgages, and I imagine a few of those were sold to Fannie and Freddie. Um, the problem comes in, uh, and I think this is what you're asking. Say I was to pick up the phone and call a federal agency of some sort. Um, And I asked him, hey, you know, I've got an applicant, his, his income is that he's, he's a, uh, a master grower for a state legal cannabis business. Can I package that loan and sell it to, to your agency? They won't say yes. Um, and I know this because that happens on the banking level, right? If I were to call any [00:10:00] number of regulators on the federal level. And ask them, hey, is it okay if I bank cannabis? They won't say yes. Now they won't say no. But they won't say yes. So what do you do?
Tommy: What do you do?
Peter Su: Um, well, you know, in a banking case, we, luckily, we do have FinCEN 2014 guidance. So we have something to hang our hat on. Um, this is why safer, safe banking, safer banking has been a hot topic. Is that they want to Memorialize this in an actual law and say, okay, you know, this, this is real now, like we can do this.
Tommy: If somebody were to call you and say, Hey Peter, I need help. I need a loan.
Peter Su: Yeah.
Tommy: What would you be your advice?
Peter Su: Oh, uh, well, it depends on the scenario. It depends on a number of details. Uh, uh, in, in almost all cases I've been able to assist. So I welcome the call if your viewers are looking for that. Um, but I'm [00:11:00] sorry, you mean a person or a business?
Tommy: Person. A person that works for a business and they're now buying a house, for example.
Peter Su: Yeah, yeah. In almost every case that I've been involved in, it's worked out. I've been able to find a solution for that. So, um, I have to assume it's either So there's a number of scenarios. Either the bank then is saying, well, then I just won't sell it, I'll hold it. They call it a portfolio loan. Now you can't sell the note, you have to hold it.
Tommy: Oh, okay. Got it.
Peter Su: uh, or, um, something else is happening in the background.
Tommy: Got it. So, uh, do you, do you have a lot of people that work in the industry bank with Hanover? Oh,
Peter Su: actually pretty common, um, because what winds up happening is, um, most banks, every bank that I'm aware of will run, you know, periodic, like, monitoring. There's any number of, like, monitoring softwares that, that, [00:12:00] like, trigger red flags, keyword searches. So let's say, uh, and this actually happened, um, in mass, um, I don't know, two years ago, three years ago, something like that, when New York State released its first batch of, like, licensee names. Uh, I suddenly got flooded with a bunch of calls because what happens is, you know, so say you have an LLC, right? Peter Su LLC. I can walk into any bank and say, Oh, I'm opening an account for Peter Su LLC. What do you do? Well, we're going to open a retail store. Technically true. Um, and generally speaking, that shouldn't be a problem anywhere. However, fast forward two years, a list comes out from New York state that says Peter Su LLC is a licensed cannabis dispensary. That, um, if it, if it triggers on some sort of a monitoring software, now, now the bank is going to close my account. And when they do that, they'll close all your accounts. So if you've got a personal account, um, you're on your signers on like, uh, I actually heard a story where a person was a signer on like, uh, the [00:13:00] church's account or something like that.
Right. And, and that account got closed too. Um, so yeah, it's actually pretty common. I get the businesses coming and then they say, well, you know, I may as well open a personal account here.
Tommy: Oh, that's, that's fantastic. That's probably a really good spot for anybody listening that works in the industry that really wants a bank in this industry to find a bank like Hanover that really truly serves the industry.
Peter Su: yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it, uh, personal banking, believe it or not, is one of the most stickiest, is what we say, uh, forms of banking. Uh, because once you've got your direct deposit set up there, I mean, you know how it is, like, when somebody has their payroll set
Tommy: bank when I, since I was 15.
Peter Su: I know. Um, It's that the inertia is so high and that they have endless studies about this.
The data shows that like once you get that person to open an account, if it's an operating, meaning a person's operating account, they're putting payroll [00:14:00] through there. They got bills going through their credit card payment to set up like that. The inertia is so high, you know? Um, so, yes, it's, it's, I get it.
It's hard for a person to close your account, move to a new one. Um, But if it's, if that decision gets forced on you, that, that's a bad, that's a bad situation.
Tommy: It's good to be proactive too. I say, especially if you're. In that stage in life where you're, you're buying large, you know, amounts of things that require capital and financing.
Peter Su: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think at a minimum, think of it as an alternative, right? Like, if you've got your primary accounts at one of the big four banks, keep it there, no problem. But do think about the fact that, like, it's really not that much of a lift for you to just open a personal account, put a little bit of money in there. And this way, God forbid something happens there, you're not like now scrambling for a solution.
Tommy: what do you guys, what are you planning over the next few years with [00:15:00] your banking program?
Peter Su: Oh, sure. Uh, uh, sorry if this is not a, um, you know, a juicy response, but because my whole mantra is, you know, treat cannabis like normal. Uh, the reality is my, my vision is just to, uh, keep doing more, right? So I've got, uh, again, my primary market is New York. So. Most of my accounts, most of my licensees are startups. Um, as they grow, um, they're going to be looking for more services. Uh, lending, for example. Uh, and, and, and, and, what's the point? They'll start being able to qualify for those things. Um, and that's what I want to do. I want to, I want to be that full service bank. Uh, catch them full, full life cycle. Um, so, you know, like I said, just treat them like normal customers of the bank.
Tommy: That's great. So how long does the business need to be and what do they need to show before they can open a facility, a line?
Peter Su: Yeah, that's a good question. [00:16:00] So, you know, normal traditional bank underwriting is actually super simple, right? Um, assuming they're a cash flow lender like we are, we really just need to know, we just want to know two things really, right? Like, do you, um, do you make, does the business make enough money to service the debt?
Can it afford the debt that it's asking me for? And what happens if it goes wrong? So, default. In other words, some sort of collateral. Um, although I would say that that's part of the, the biggest challenge in cannabis banking, cannabis financing, uh, is that your typical cannabis business actually doesn't fit in your traditional underwriting box. Um, because, uh, let's say your most valuable asset is, is the license, right? You can't put a lien on it, right?
Um, uh, what, uh,
Depends on the state. Some states allow it, New York does not. Now, even if you could put a lien on it, what is the trade value of that [00:17:00] license? Right? Um, so as an example, uh, in New Jersey, I know that I can lend money to a liquor store. Right? So, liquor license. And I know that if that loan goes bad, I can dump that license for like 140, 000. I know almost exactly how much, right? It's about 140, 000. So I've put a bottom on that loan. You know, you're a good customer here. I see good cashflow. I, you say, Hey, I'm looking for 250, 000 on an inventory line. I say, well, you know, I'm really only taking risk on a hundred or so thousand. Not bad versus cannabis. The, the, the risk is unlimited.
Tommy: Oh, that's interesting. And also, I mean, if you look, if you think about the cannabis industry, you have the license and you have inventory. Well,
Peter Su: Well, inventory also,
Tommy: going to pack inventory, right?
Peter Su: right. Your, your most, uh, uh, common forms of financing. Um, so somebody collateralized, right? I'm not saying it's impossible, [00:18:00] but it's hard to do. Uh, receivable financing, right? Uh, your typical store has no receivable. Um, and even if you had receivables, your counterparties are going to be other cannabis businesses, right?
Logically. Um, and then of course, inventory.
Tommy: But that's actually great news that that's, these are the steps that you, um, that you first see as businesses mature in the New York market, where you guys are from, they're going to grow and they're going to need certain facilities, uh, just normal.
Before I let you go, I have to ask this question. You're in the industry. You've been in this for a while. Why don't you, and this is an opportunity for you to crap on other, other banking solutions. Why don't you like about the banking industry today and what's being offered?
Peter Su: Oh, uh, okay. Well, uh, you probably know there's a lot of sort of, um, almost every institution that I'm aware of probably uses some [00:19:00] sort of a back end program. Uh, this is true of banking in general, by the way, not just cannabis banking. But in cannabis banking, uh, there's a few providers that are key to the compliance backbone of, of, you know, just about every cannabis banking program that's available.
Maybe not every one, but Um, and therein lies the rub. Um, because if that program has friction built in, Um, it trickles down. If that program has costs built in, obviously that trickles down. Um, to say that I don't like it is probably taking the case too far, but my basic answer is like, the costs, uh, the capability, and The friction that those systems introduce is actually what's, what's the pain point that a lot of cannabis companies have today.
Tommy: I had no idea that they adopt a system in the back end. That's. [00:20:00] Limiting.
Peter Su: yeah. So let me give you an example without naming names. So, uh, there is a program out there that is heavily predicated on POS data. So a couple of things consider what that means that if you're a bank and you're using this system. Well, unless your customer happens to be retail, you know, meaning POS, right? Well, that system's kind of useless, right? Um, two, uh, pulling POS data, now you almost have too much information. Um, and once you have that information, you gotta do something with it. So, as an example, uh, let's say, for example, you know every dollar that's going through the POS, right? And you do, because you're getting the FIOS data. Um, now, if the retailer decides, you know what, I'm okay with keeping some cash. I'm just going to recycle it. Right? But the [00:21:00] bank has so much data and knows exactly how much cash you're deciding to keep. So the bank may decide, well, that's too much. Right? So the point is, you're creating a friction that doesn't need to be there.
Like, uh, Under normal circumstances, I don't know what my retailers hold. Uh, outside of cannabis. If my supermarket customer decides, uh, I'm good with holding this cash. That's, that's, that's their prerogative. That's their business. Provided
that there's no money laundering, obviously I'm not supporting that.
What I mean is
a retailer deciding that this, these cash is fine for me to hold onto, that should be up to the entrepreneurs that that's his or her right. But if. But if the system forces me to do something about it and I have that data, I do have a problem where I can see someone coming in and saying, well, I've got, you've got an anomaly here. What made
you decide that it was okay for them to keep this much cash?
Tommy: Who decides what [00:22:00] system to adopt, or who decides, is that an individual bank? They decide, hey, we're going to need this from our clients.
Peter Su: Vendor due diligence. Yeah. Like, like it's just probably by committee.
Tommy: Got it. Yeah, that's, it's, I've heard horror stories of what some banks require
Peter Su: Yeah.
Oh, uh, like you mentioned, uh, financial statements, for example. Um, Why are you asking for financial statements? Because you bought a system that said you need to collect financial statements?
Tommy: for me, it's like, if you're not loaning that person anything,
Peter Su: Oh, sure,
Tommy: they don't owe you any money, like, you know what I mean, then why do you need financial statements? I'll get it. What risks do you have?
How does that kind of fit into open or maintaining a bank account?
Peter Su: so I have two answers for you. One, I agree with you. Two, it's one of the FinCEN guidance. It talks about like, uh, uh, you know, that the business is a front for [00:23:00] cartels, et cetera, et cetera. And so how do you know that? Well, you, you collect the financial statements, you compare it to transactions in the, in the, in the bank.
Tommy: Gosh. Okay. So there is some rationality behind this madness.
Peter Su: Sort of, I mean, again, you wouldn't, you wouldn't
do that normally, right? To your point, unless you're, um, unless you are, unless there's a trigger for it, uh, or you are lending them money.
Tommy: Got it. So the FinCEN guideline, just a brief history. Is it particularly for high risk businesses?
Peter Su: Oh, no, it's specific to cannabis, uh, which is why
financial institutions will look at that as, uh, as,
Tommy: The
Peter Su: Implied,
uh, implied permission to bank cannabis, even though it doesn't explicitly say that.
Tommy: Got it.
Peter Su: Like it's actually called, uh, you know, uh, uh, BSA, uh, BSA Expectations for Banking Cannabis or something, I
Tommy: So how did you come up with the [00:24:00] rationality in terms of what you guys need to service the industry?
Peter Su: Oh, I, I mean, I think at this point it's become part of the zygous, right? Like, like, uh, the, the reality is now you have many years of history, people going through bank exams. Like the first bank that did it, the first credit union that did it, like, I'm sure they were sitting on pins and needles because at some point you, you, you created all these rules and regs, but at some point you've got to go through an exam, right? Um, so a third party's going to come in and, and, and judge you for what you did. But by the time that person has gone through multiple exams and other people are looking like, well, you know, so and so did it. And now you have like publicly traded banks that actually talk about it on their quarterly reports and stuff like that. So to say that I came up with it is definitely, you know, I definitely don't want to take credit. We're really falling to hurt, honestly. Um, you know, it's easier for newcomers to point at successful programs and say, look, pay attention. We did everything they did, [00:25:00] and they've
gone through five bank exams, right?
Like, why are you hassling me, you know?
Tommy: Oh, that's fascinating. That's more or less like going through a 280e audit. Really. You have precedent and you just point that this has worked. That's interesting. That's
Peter Su: Yeah.
Like, banking can be very much a herd mentality, right? So and so's done it. So yes, the pioneer, the first few that did it, those are the guys that took the arrows.
Tommy: Peter, before I let you go, you're part of the Asian cannabis roundhouse committee
Peter Su: Roundtable, yeah.
Tommy: round table. Why? So what, what is this all about?
Peter Su: Oh, sure. Uh, uh, well, so the Asian Cannabis Roundtable started out very grassroots. Uh, it was literally, uh, so Kristen Jordan, our founder, um, she was one of the, you know, early adopters here in New York. Uh, I mean, literally going up to Albany, lobbying for the, uh, what later became the MRTA, the, the, the, the, the, the law that, [00:26:00] that legalized cannabis in New York, the MRTA.
Um. So, you know, frankly back then it was literally just her and her buddies like hanging out and like talking, uh, thoughts about legalization, things like that. Uh, later she approached me and said, hey, we want to get, uh, you know, create a real organization, you know. Um, I think about it pretty simply, um, so past, present, and future, right?
Uh, I think in, uh, In the cannabis, in the Asian culture, uh, the, the older generation, so past, uh, I find that there is a heavy stigma for cannabis, um, and it's a very negative stigma, generally speaking. Um, in fact, in, in Chinese, in, in Mandarin, um, you know, in English, you have the word drug, which could mean medicinal or narcotic, and in Mandarin, the word for, there's a word for drug, uh, Yao. And the word that you use for narcotics is actually poison. [00:27:00] So, or So, in other words, as a Chinese kid, you would grow up referring to cannabis as poison.
Tommy: Oh,
Peter Su: Um, so, to some extent, you know, wanting to change that, right? Change that perception in the community. Um, so at the present, of course, it's just, you know, in a fairly literal pithy sense, like, hey, Asians working in cannabis, we want to come together, put the Asian voice at the table, etc. Um, uplift Asian businesses, uh, you know, you go to these, uh, conferences and, and you, you want to feel like, hey, there should be Asian speakers, you know, this, we have experts that are, that, that, that can represent Asian voices, you know, etc. And then of course, the future, you know, like, uh, uh, you and I might, might not feel like, uh, oh, I need to join an organization to meet other, you know, Asian professionals, but there's probably some kid that's trying to get into the industry that thinks like, how do I do this?
How do I meet Tommy? How do I meet Peter? And we want to provide [00:28:00] a safe space for that.
Tommy: oh, that's awesome.
Peter Su: Yeah. That's the future.
Tommy: Yeah. That's brilliant to hear. I, I knew that. Cannabis became more accepted when I first smoked with my dad. Growing up, he would have murdered me. But, you know, we shared a session together and enjoyed cannabis together. I'm like, okay, well, things are turning around. If he, you know, got over that stigma, then we're going somewhere.
Peter Su: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe it's the opium wars or whatever, but like in, in, in Asia, uh, well, think of it this way in, in like China, for example, uh, cannabis is still a capital offense. Like you, you get executed. So,
Tommy: I think.
Peter Su: yeah. What's interesting though, is, um, you know, words have power, right?
Like, uh, so again, in Mandarin, so that the word for cannabis is [00:29:00] Ma. Uh, the word for hemp is dma. So it's, it is like, it's very , you know, it's like, just change it. You just modify the word and suddenly it's totally Okay.
Tommy: So what's a dama?
Peter Su: So, so, Uh, so ma refers, I'm sorry, I said it backwards. So, ma refers to the plant, right? So cannabis, so if we, if we were getting scientific, like cannabis sativa is referred to as ma, but, but we think, uh, the way we, in English, you think of hemp, right?
So you could have which is a hemp cloth. Uh, bat DAMA is, is, uh, marijuana. Now you, and I know it's the same plant, but, uh, the, the cannabis, the marijuana is, is, is, is referred to as dama, which means it's, you know, psychoactives. Yeah,
Tommy: That's fascinating.
Peter Su: yeah.
Tommy: Peter, before I let you go, where can our listeners find you?
Peter Su: Oh, sure. I, I, I think the easiest way would be to find me on LinkedIn. Uh, I'm active on LinkedIn. Peter Su. [00:30:00] Uh, I have a, um. You know, I think I'm active and I do respond to DMs.
Tommy: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. You dropped a ton of knowledge I've, anybody that's listening, please hit Peter up. If you're looking for a loan in the cannabis industry,
Peter Su: I don't want to over
promise that, but yes, I'm happy to help.
Tommy: Well, if you're qualified, let's just say that your credit score is good.
Peter Su: Yeah. That's a different question. Yeah. Do you qualify?
Tommy: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
Peter Su: Thank you, Tommy.
Tommy: Hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. If you're obtaining a loan or you have difficulty obtaining a loan. Contact Peter, he's your man. He can help you. Hopefully. Until next time God. Oh, wait.
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